REAL BAD DAY!! Tactic 2.4ghz Radio Contact Loss!!

[Shooter]

Well, this video isn't pretty. My hydro became a submarine....note the huge plume of water bubbling up! Not sure what the cause is at this point. Seems that I hooked and dove in. When I tried to restart, she went under and I lost complete radio contact. Sure enough, it continued at FULL throttle straight down. For some reason my flexshaft broke into TWO!! and the stuffing tube was mutilated.

1. Anyone had this happen with 2.4ghz?? Not sure how well these radios work once you are under water!

2. My stuffing tube is a MESS. Any ideas on how to remove it?

Thanks guys.

Video of the incident (amazingly, the wife was videoing.....)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_GxJpS8COI

[crabstick]

water + receiver = bound for failure.

Get some DP270 and waterproof the next one.

[Shooter]

The receiver (as well as the rest of the inside) was BONE DRY. Not a single drop of water. This pickle hull seals very well.

[crabstick]

sorry, read your post wrong I thought she got wet. I have heard of a couple of issues with those tactic radios.. maybe it doesn't get very good signal under water?

[bwells]

Shoot howdy, I have 2 Tactic 2.4 Gig setups. Are you sure the radio drove it down? Hard to see what happened by the vid but it sure looked like it was running good

[Shooter]

Once she got a little under, the radio gave up and I lost control. It's almost like the signal couldn't penetrate beneath the surface. Went to full throttle and headed further under. I have several of the tactic radios as well and I agree....they have all been fine until this incident.

[Rumdog]

What speed control?

[Shooter]

All the electronics are stock UL-1 (ESC, motor, etc...)

[Rumdog]

I ask because generally the speed control should cut the throttle if signal is lost.

[Shooter]

Good point Rumdog. I wonder why it continued at full throttle. Maybe it's a radio problem. Could the Aluminum boat I was in have anything to do with it?

[Doug Smock]

I ask because generally the speed control should cut the throttle if signal is lost.

I haven't tested the UL-1 control but I know that the Castle Hydra controls will hold their last command for approx. six seconds when there is a signal loss.

Six seconds is a Looooooooooooong time.:eek::eek::eek:

[Rumdog]

Wow! I never would have thought that!

[Rumdog]

I'd better test my esc's, stat!

[Shooter]

I will give it a test tomorrow. I would hope that it returns to neutral if the signal is lost.

[Doug Smock]

[QUOTE=Shooter;177407]

2. My stuffing tube is a MESS. Any ideas on how to remove it?

QUOTE]

Is that a Vac-U-pickle, is the stuffing tube epoxied in?

[Doug Smock]

Wow! I never would have thought that!

I learned that the hard way. Don't ask.

I just tested a UL-1 control (older one). It seems they hold their last command for approx two seconds. Still a fair amount of time to be diving with that setup.

Trini stuffed his Vac-U-Pickle with a SV setup during a heat race and was down for two laps. The boat finally surfaced and he was able to finsh the race.

Doug

[Ub Hauled]

I ha some issues with low batteries in the Tx... not under water though, not sure how it would react if I had low batteries and she would go under....

[damfurst]

I had what I thought was an issue with the tactic receiver in my Gecko. It would occasionally stuff and go under, when it would surface it would run wide open until I could disconnect the battery. This was on a brushed esc/motor. I discovered however that it wasn't the receiver at all but the esc. When I ran it on 9.9v or lower batt it was fine, but on 11.1v lipo it run fine for a few minutes and then take off. Since changing back to brushless I've not had any problems so I'm sure that it was the esc and not the tactic rx. All items were also waterproofed.

[wizard122]

Hi read this post I am not a fan of cheap radios.
http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?t=13926

[Rex R]

2.4ghz signles don't penetrate water(which makes them worthless for submarines. the tactic with no external antenna in a typical mounting location(low in the hull) would be more prone to loss of signal than those units w/ an antenna.

[Rumdog]

i have had 0 issues with my tactic in over 10 different boats.

[Jim Bob]

This is not just a cheap 2.4 radio problem. Same thing happened to me with a Futaba FAAST system and Castle mini Sidewinder ESC. That is of course before I realized (or read) the system has a built in fail safe. I would suggest a fail safe for all 2.4 systems. You never know when you might"submarine" your ride.

[Meniscus]

I haven't tested the UL-1 control but I know that the Castle Hydra controls will hold their last command for approx. six seconds when there is a signal loss.

Six seconds is a Looooooooooooong time.:eek::eek::eek:

This is one of the main reasons why I don't run the Hydras. Great controllers, but doesn't set well with me, especially at higher speeds with no control as you watch your model approach the shore.

I haven't had an issue with my FM system. Sure I don't have the range as 2.4, but I'm also not watching a spec in the distance. As with anything else, I think it's a matter of understanding and accepting the risks, regardless of the circumstances.

[Steven Vaccaro]

My son was using a 2.4 Spektrum yesterday with his 24" boat and huge waves. He spent more time under water that above it. The only loss of signal we found was when water got in the hull and the esc was wet. We dried it all out and went back to running. Now I'm not arguing the fact that 2.4 doesn't work under water(thats very good to know!! Thanks). But we never seemed to ever seemed to lose contact.

[Jesse J]

Man, comments from the wife are precious..."um, it looks like its maybe under water..." Was she kinda giggling too?

great clip, hope all worked out.

[Arctic Fire]

The comment at the end is truly great Jesse. It makes you want to just look at your loving wife, and shake your head.

Where was the panic swearing that surely would have followed if that happened to me? I am going to install a tactic in my fastech this spring, I hope I don't have any issues!

[Jesse J]

Where was the panic swearing that surely would have followed if that happened to me?

Here here!! :lol::lol:I even turned on my sound and watched it again, expecting some comment... maybe the cursing was silenced knowing the film was rolling. :roflol: :rofl:

You should be fine, the Fastech likes to flip around, but has too much flotation (I hope) to stay under - plus the hydrodynamics of the bow of a vee.

[Shooter]

Ha Ha!!! Maybe if you guys are good, I'll post the "un-edited" version!!

I tested it tonight. Sure enough....as soon as I turned off the TX, it stayed at the speed it was at....INDEFINITELY!! Before I go bashing tactic, I have to admit, this is one of the OLDER tactics. It's a 4 channel TR-424 with "SLT" technology receiver.

I tried the test again with the original UL-1 radio (tactic TR-324 receiver and TTX240 radio). It went right to NEUTRAL when I shut the radio off. GOOD NEWS for all the UL-1 guys!

Both tests were conducted at about 30ft range and repeated 5x each with the same results.

I'm interested in some of the reports with the "2 seconds until neutral", etc... Maybe a different level RX and TX??

RexR is absolutely right. I did some research and subs cannot use 2.4ghz! It wouldn't be so much of a problem if it went to neutral though. I am definitely switching to the ORIGINAL UL-1 tactic 2ch radio.

Doug - YES it's a Vacupickle! Here's a couple shots of Miss D during her better days! It was one of my better builds. I still can't figure out why the brass tube is flared out and the teflon is mangled. As you can see, it's epoxied and glassed into place. The only thing I can think of is maybe it hit bottom (it was shallow there) and all the prop thrust compressed the flexshaft until it gave loose. Broke right in two!!

[Gary]

I dont worry about runaways anymore since i switched to Hytecs Synth recievers. You program in your fail safe position on throttle and rudder and if there is a loss it will automaticly go to that position. It works fantastic. I have tested at full throttle and shut the radio off and it just stops dead in the water.

[Boatman]

I don't know on the radio end but one thing I do have a clue on is the rowboat. I have found with even my spektrum that range is decreased to about 100ft. when I am setting in my alum. rowboat. When I stand on the dock I can pretty much drive as far as I can see the front to back. I have also noticed the throttle sticking for about a half second when I push my range limits in the boat. Sounds strange and I dont know if its the boat or just setting so low to the water but there is certainly something there.

[Shooter]

Boatman,

Thanks for the confirmation. I have noticed range loss and issues when in the aluminum boat as well. That's why I mentioned it above. I'm glad that someone else was able to confirm this. I agree completely.....when on the dock/land, my range is much further. I think the aluminum somehow interferes with the signal.

[Shooter]

It took some patience, but I was able to hog out the old stuffing tube and install a new one. If anyone else has to do it someday, a dremel with a cut-off wheel works well to carve around the old tube. Before I knew it, the tube pulled right out. I layed a new pc of glass, epoxy, and the rest is history.... Hopefully have her back on the water by the end of the week.

[FE Wannabe]

From what I have heard, the lower the frequency, the better and deeper it will work underwater.

[exotica]

...im under the same impression that if signal is lost the boat should power down therefore not run and stop dead on the water.

[Salty]

it should. but is it the RX or the ESC that is responsible for this?

[tsenecal]

the 2.4ghz receivers may be "smart" and continue to feed a known viable signal to the ESC/servo during failsafe conditions...

according to the owners manual for the 4 channel, it has a programmable failsafe.

http://manuals.hobbico.com/tac/tacj2404-manual.pdf

bottom of page 12:

"To set the failsafe:
1. Turn on the Tx power switch.
2. Move the throttle stick to the desired throttle position for when the Rx goes
to failsafe.
3. Press the “BIND” button on the Tactic receiver.
4. When the Rx binds successfully, the Rx will remember the throttle channel’s
failsafe position. "

so basically, the receiver will set the failsafe values to whatever position the sticks are in when you bind the receiver to the transmitter.

the 2 channel pistol also has a failsafe, but it according to its manual, it is not programmable, that system sets the servos/ESC to neutral (center) on loss of signal. This would explain why the ESC acts as expected with the original radio.

HOWEVER, based on what others have had happen with the Tactic Pistol on signal loss, i will be rebinding my receivers with the throttle in neutral on all my FE boats.

[tsenecal]

From what I have heard, the lower the frequency, the better and deeper it will work underwater.

FE Wannabe, FE boats are my diversion for my real hobby... R/C submarines.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1278752
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=946045

Your statement is basically correct. 27mhz SHOULD penetrate further than 50mhz, which should penetrate further than 75mhz, but in my testing they all penetrate to about the same depth (6 feet in a swimming pool). there might be a couple inches difference between 27mhz and 75mhz. In my submarines i use PCM 75mhz systems, with programmed failsafe configurations.

2.4ghz has at best a couple inches of penetration, and at worst, zero penetration. the 2.4ghz carrier signal is supposedly a harmonic frequency with water, and if that is true, it would have zero penetration. I have witnessed a gentleman with a 2.4ghz setup in a sub, but it is configured so the antenna goes up the periscope, and it is never run deeper than periscope depth.

[longballlumber]

Hey Shooter...

I have experienced your same scenario on regular FM 27mHz a few years ago. Boat went under and kept going for what seemed like forever. It finally popped back up and was dry on the inside, but the motor was hot!!! I also noticed some mud on the hull. I think my situation had something to do with the boat being under water much like yours.

Another point of interest is your comment on using two different radios and getting two different results turning off the radio. MAKE SURE your getting the same series of beeps with the same tone when arming both radios. We have witnessed in the club that a UL-1 controller can arm and seem to be ok, but if you shut off the radio it will go full throttle. We ended up making some trim changed in the radio and finally got it to arm correctly. Turn off the radio and nothing! This was all done with the same controller and radio (DX3 spectrum).

Getting out your stuffing tube; keep in mind this is the method I have used for wood and fiberglass boats. I have never tried it on ABS/Polystyrene. Cut the excess brass of the stuffing tube usind a Dremel leaving an .5 to 1 inch left on each side of the hull (inside and out). I then use a solder GUN (not iron) and heat up the stuffing tube. As the tube heats up it will release the epoxy and pull using some needle nose pliers. You will probably need to rework the area of the plastic that melts and the epoxy that is left using some filler and such… I think you get the Idea.

Later
Mike

[longballlumber]

Oops... day late and a dollar short... I an not sure how I missed all of the other posts.

[Salty]

Hey Shooter (and anyone else having a similar issue) I found a solution for mine.
Posted here http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/showthread.php?t=17141 - hope it helps!!!!

[Shooter]

Mike - better late than never! Actually, that was a good tip to heat the stuffing tube. I'll do that next time.

Just to clear things up....the 2 channel tactic is PERFECT. As soon as the signal is lost, it goes to neutral. It's the 4 channel tactic that had the problem.

tsenecal - GREAT info!:w00t: I'll try re-binding/programming the 4ch TX. I love that radio, but gave up on it after this.

Not sure how this old thread started up again, but I'm glad it did! I think tsenecal may have solved my prob.

[BHChieftain]

Since the thread started back up...

I'm using a DX3S with an MR3000 reciever, ESC is CC Hydra 240.

Yesterday I sub'ed my mono further than I've ever done it before-- the water was pretty clear so I saw it go under-- straight down 6+ feet. She rose back up, but connection was lost. I've lost connection before when the boat has gone under, but when that's happened the connection relinked on its own in about 10 seconds. This time, nothing... I was about to take out the rescue boat, when I thought to try turning the receiver off then back on-- sure enough, that worked!


Chief

[britscoot]

you mean tx?

[Steven Vaccaro]

Since the thread started back up...

I'm using a DX3S with an MR3000 reciever, ESC is CC Hydra 240.

Yesterday I sub'ed my mono further than I've ever done it before-- the water was pretty clear so I saw it go under-- straight down 6+ feet. She rose back up, but connection was lost. I've lost connection before when the boat has gone under, but when that's happened the connection relinked on its own in about 10 seconds. This time, nothing... I was about to take out the rescue boat, when I thought to try turning the receiver off then back on-- sure enough, that worked!


Chief

I've recently noticed it takes various times to reconnect after being submerged. Sometimes a second or two, sometimes upto 15 seconds. Maybe Andy K can comment on this.

[AndyKunz]

I didn't read this thread until today (when asked to) because it said Tactic in the title. Now that people are talking about Spektrum, I'm answering.

When the link is lost for a long period of time, the Spektrum receivers will start looking for the transmitter on the whole spectrum. They are assuming that the tx was turned off and back on - (when the happens, the tx will always acquire new frequencies). Depending on many factors, that time might be rather long, as it has 80 channels to scan. It's a bit of a needle-in-a-haystack search, but it will eventually re-acquire. If it takes more than 10 seconds (which feels like a lot more than 10 seconds when it happens to you!), power cycling the tx will often help.

ALWAYS SET YOUR FAILSAFE AFTER YOU SET UP YOUR MODEL BY RE-BINDING IT.

Andy

[SweetZ28]

Hi i use the tactic radio in my scale crwlers i go into water with them and i know for sure the receiver is under the water and i never lost any control of my trucks?
maybe they have to go a few feet under water?

[BHChieftain]

Hi i use the tactic radio in my scale crwlers i go into water with them and i know for sure the receiver is under the water and i never lost any control of my trucks?
maybe they have to go a few feet under water?

Needs to be a lot of water to block 2.4GHz... but it will...

Chief