Large capacity lipo packs no longer?

[Steven Vaccaro]

I would like to start off this new section of the OSE forum by saying that I just purchased some Hyperion 35c 6500mah packs. When I ordered them Pat(rclipos) said there are new shipping regulations, which make the cost of importing high capacity cells extremely high. Which may cause the disappearance of this type of cell :thumbsdown:

[tth]

Thats a bummer......thanks for opening a battery topic area Steven!

[Steven Vaccaro]

Thats a bummer......thanks for opening a battery topic area Steven!

Hopefully someone will figure out a way around it.

No problem on opening this area. Its long over due.

[johnnyoverkill]

Steven,

I have read that there are ways about it when ordering in bulk from overseas. I'll dig around for the article and post it when it's found.

What I do remember about it was this; it was stated that oftentimes the mail-sized packages are shipped aboard regular passenger airlines in the cargo hold. The risk of fire was the potential issue. If combined with an aggressor, it becomes a bomb. Under 29 and 49 CFR hazmat for transportation, the airlines have pushed to remove it. Under controlled cargo conditions, the problem is lessened. Therefore, bulk only shipments.

Again, I'll dig around and post the article. It may be of some help each of us.

John

[johnnyoverkill]

Here's a better definition to the transportation issues:

http://www.nexergy.com/media/pdfs/TRANS_IATA_Guidance.pdf

John

[JimClark]

what is the cutoff on size?

[ozzie-crawl]

hmm wonder if airlines will start only half filling there fuel tanks to minimize the size of a fire in crashes,obviously some bureaucrats pushing paper to keep his job

[ozzie-crawl]

this is from a thread on RRR, not sure how accurate it is
20Wh per cell AND 100Wh per battery =
1S to 5S = 5400mAh
6S = 4500mAh
8S = 3370mAh
10S = 2700mAh
12S = 2250mAh

[BHChieftain]

There's always the cargo boats...

-Chief

[Diesel6401]

hmm wonder if airlines will start only half filling there fuel tanks to minimize the size of a fire in crashes,obviously some bureaucrats pushing paper to keep his job

They already do, not because of fire though. It's more cost effective (weight issue) to fly with only the necessary amount instead of full tank everytime. Sorry off topic, but I work for the airlines.

[ozzie-crawl]

i can understand there concern over lithium batteries in commercial air craft.
but i will give you one guess as to the batteries used in a Boeing 787 to power the on board computers etc

[ozzie-crawl]

They already do, not because of fire though. It's more cost effective (weight issue) to fly with only the necessary amount instead of full tank everytime. Sorry off topic, but I work for the airlines.

thats true every thing is worked out on weight but there has to be enough fuel to divert etc, was just pointing out the plane it self carries huge quantities of fuel

[Xzessperated]

thats true every thing is worked out on weight but there has to be enough fuel to divert etc, was just pointing out the plane it self carries huge quantities of fuel

I knew what you meant ozzie.
It is sure going to make me feel a whole lot better when my plane is screaming at a 1,000 kph in a vertical dive towards the mountain below to know that there is not a single large lipo on the plane. :sarcasm1:
To be serious, I for one, will probably leave the hobby if this law goes too far (don't start getting excited yet as I have a good supply of lipos). I have fun for an hour on a single 3s 1,300 mAh battery in my r/c electric glider. I enjoy my FE boats more at the moment, simply because of the speed. The prospects of doing 80 mph on a 3s, 1,300 mAh battery look slim to me.
Maybe smaller batteries will just be a new challenge for the younger guys on this and other forums.

[Diesel6401]

thats true every thing is worked out on weight but there has to be enough fuel to divert etc, was just pointing out the plane it self carries huge quantities of fuel

Yea they usually carry about 25ms or a little more of extra fuel. Theirs alot of other factors as well like weather, wind speed, baggage.. ect...


i can understand there concern over lithium batteries in commercial air craft.
but i will give you one guess as to the batteries used in a Boeing 787 to power the on board computers etc

This is actually a big deal. I've been an aircraft mechanic going on 8 years and this is the only plane I know of in commerical aviation to use lithium batteries as their main supply. Ni-Cad has been the industry standard and now a jump to Li-ion very interesting. This plane (787) is really breaking down/opening new doors into commerical aviation. Commerical is usually 5-10 years behind military aircraft due to FAA regs, so this is another advancement which is a long time overdue. Theirs also special conditions added to only this plane for this reason http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgSC.nsf/0/80b9e22f91f3ae59862572cd00701404!OpenDocument&ExpandSection=-4.

Li-ion is really taking or has taken over as standard in mostly everything these days from cell phones to cameras to drills ect, but yet their sooooooo dangerous and we need to stop using them..... LAME!!!!

[ozzie-crawl]

this is just a u.s.a issue at the moment is it not ?
have not heard Australia following the same laws ?
its been awhile since i looked at them so not sure how there discharge rates compare to li-po but i am fairly sure lithium magnesium is not as volatile as li-po and wont self ignite

[ozzie-crawl]

yes i realise that the 787 has special permission to use li-ion.
but as you say lithium batteries are used from mobile phones,laptops,toys etc.
seems to be scaremongering going on and as you point out some education of lithium batteries may go along way.

[ozzie-crawl]

I knew what you meant ozzie.
It is sure going to make me feel a whole lot better when my plane is screaming at a 1,000 kph in a vertical dive towards the mountain below to know that there is not a single large lipo on the plane. :sarcasm1:
To be serious, I for one, will probably leave the hobby if this law goes too far (don't start getting excited yet as I have a good supply of lipos). I have fun for an hour on a single 3s 1,300 mAh battery in my r/c electric glider. I enjoy my FE boats more at the moment, simply because of the speed. The prospects of doing 80 mph on a 3s, 1,300 mAh battery look slim to me.
Maybe smaller batteries will just be a new challenge for the younger guys on this and other forums.

i am not sure paddy but i think the law is the size of a single pack, so if say a 6s 5000 mah battery was ordered it may come as 2x 3s 5000 packs,i believe some places are already shipping this way.
it may come down to us buying single cells and making our own packs.
i for one would be happy with this

[hide]

There's always the cargo boats...

-Chief

My dad works in the shipping industry and they are under the same pressures the airlines are regarding explosives.

[Diesel6401]

yes i realise that the 787 has special permission to use li-ion.
but as you say lithium batteries are used from mobile phones,laptops,toys etc.
seems to be scaremongering going on and as you point out some education of lithium batteries may go along way.

I added the lil special permission part to show that even though they have proven themselves folks still try to restrict them. Also to show how big of deal it is their being used. We're on the same page Ozzie, I was just trying to add some some airline perspective to the topic. I agree with everything your saying ...

That's one (of many reasons) I don't watch the news, they make an up the opionon for those people too lazy to research and come up with an opinion of their own. Whats going to happen is some superhero law maker is going to make a big stink about it and then when everyone (including the superhero lawmaker) is going to get charged extra money when they go buy a laptop new cell ect. because of battery laws then they'll say O i didn't realize how often im surrounded by lithium maybe I'm an idiot for B****ching about it something I knew nothing about. Just my 2c..

[Steven Vaccaro]

There's always the cargo boats...

-Chief

I also asked why they were not brought in this way, he said they used to and saw many failures due to the high heat build up in the containers.

[ozzie-crawl]

:iagree:
as i said some bureaucratic trying to justify his job with out knowing the facts.
if there was a passenger airplane that crashed because of li-po cells self combusting in mid air for no reason then i would agree with there restriction.
but how long have lithium cells been shipped around the world,there must be millions if not billions of them around the world and how many air craft have crashed because of one.

[Fluid]

Wring your hands as much as you want, it will do no good. Hobbyists have zero weight to try to change FAA regulations.

And of course the sky isn't falling anyway - posts above to the contrary. We have a simple solution to this issue, and we have had it since LiPos first came along - paralleling.



.

[hide]

I also asked why they were not brought in this way, he said they used to and saw many failures due to the high heat build up in the containers.

If I recall correctly when my dad imports flammable/explosive goods they have to pay a large fee and there is a hell of a lot more work regarding special containers and insurance. They might even be the same regulations as air freight.

The containers reach 50 degrees celcius easily... I worked in unloading them last Summer and the sides are burding hot. This is in England where it was only 20 degrees celcius outside.

[AndyKunz]

And of course the sky isn't falling anyway - posts above to the contrary. We have a simple solution to this issue, and we have had it since LiPos first came along - paralleling.

Or better yet, keep using what comes in through bulk importers.

Of course I'm a little biased because I work for one of those "evil" companies, but perhaps this will help people understand that there really are reasons to buy domestically even if it costs a bit more.

Andy

[Steven Vaccaro]

We have a simple solution to this issue, and we have had it since LiPos first came along - paralleling.



.

Ya, but thats a pain in the butt. so instead of 2 packs, I now have 4. That also means more chargers. I bought enough 6500's to last me a couple of seasons.

[graill]

Time to go all turbine baby!!


Steve, get that jetcat franchise going........

[Diesel6401]

Time to go all turbine baby!!


Steve, get that jetcat franchise going........

We aren't that far off... But different then what you might think. Read the section call "Going Micro"
http://thefutureofthings.com/articles/49/engine-on-a-chip.html

Here's a short paragraph from the article:

On the commercial market, millimeter engines could also have a large variety of applications ranging from refuelable batteries for consumer products such as laptops, digital cameras and cell phones, to cheap micro engines which could be used for agriculture, Micro-Electro-Mechanical Systems (MEMS), sensors and even toys. Although industrial applications such as power stations made out of large arrays of millimeter size turbine might still be a distant dream due to the low efficiency level of the millimeter engine, It is not inconceivable that in the future more efficient millimeter engines will be able to allow for a competitive alternative to existing power manufacturing technology.

Here's another cool artice following that: http://thefutureofthings.com/articles.php?itemId=47/61/
It's a few years old, but nontheless it shows you the direction scientist are trying to take us.

[AndyKunz]

Time to go all turbine baby!!


Steve, get that jetcat franchise going........

I saw at least 2 turbine boats at Toledo, and one of them was twin turbines! They had a Oberto turbine in the static competition, and a booth had a cat twin. Later on another cat showed up, but I don't know what powered it as non-hydros really don't catch my eye.

I'm just glad it wasn't my wallet!

Andy

[BakedMopar]

One of the reasons I got away from Nitro is being in Hawaii you can only get that shipped by boat. My LHS will bring in a huge order at a time. You soon will be buying stale nitro at a fresh price.

[sailr]

If they could ever get the A123 LiFe batteries to deliver the 'punch' of a lipo and reduce the size and weight, that would be the answer because they are nonvolatile. Sadly, according to a Battery Chemical Engineer friend of mine at one of the largest battery factories in the world says that just ain't gonna happen.

[Himalaya]

Just permanently parallel two packs together, include the balancing wires, and shrink wrap them up. So that you got a 2P config. You can have 10Ah or any bigger capacity pack if you like.

[motronic]

Don't worry just yet guys, lipo manufacturers found a way around and are already selling "Dual" packs. They are 2 packs, each one below the Hazardous Material limit, combined in one large pack that you just have to connect the 2 pairs of terminals in series (or parallel).
Check it out (prices are good too)
http://www.voltaz.com/products/details/65/80/lipos/6s-packs-22.2-volt/4500---6000-mah/pq-5050-6s-xq-v3d.html

This of course you can D.I.Y. with any pack you can get, connected as you like and shrink tube it as one.

Joseph

[sailr]

That's allo well and good but extra wire, extra connectors, etc. mean more resistance, less performance. Too bad.