Castle Creations Pheonix Ice 100

[BakedMopar]

Anybody use these in their boat. Pro and Cons please.



Thnaks,
George

[Ub Hauled]

If you can wait to buy, there is a Hydra version of the ICE coming out sometime in the future.
I have not used one of the Regular ICE ESCs but I know people who have and they are excellent (as per them).

[RCprince]

It looks like a killer, I held one in my hands and I didn't want to let it go, can't wait for water-cooling.

[BakedMopar]

I thought I read something about a hydra version. I just hope the price don't go sky rocket. That would be the deciding factor.

[Steven Vaccaro]

I've been playing with one. It needs a pistix. But has lots of cool options and logging features.

[sailr]

There is no logical reason why adding cooling to the ICE should raise the price more than $20-30.

[Ub Hauled]

More then anything I want a pistol compatible one, the cooling would be very cool...
I think they can buffer the cost somehow, it would be nice if they could just drill the
existing cooling and stick a tube in there, that should not add anything to the price tag.

[AndyKunz]

More then anything I want a pistol compatible one, the cooling would be very cool...

That's what the PiStix is for.

The ICE controls are real popular here. You can use them to verify exactly what the model needs (thanks to the data logging) and then use an appropriate, less-expensive control.

Andy

[Ub Hauled]

That's what the PiStix is for.


I know Andy, I own one.
The little contraption is great, I use it with a Phoenix 110HV
but I like having less things to break down in a system,
I' prefer running w/o a PiStix if possible.

[Steven Vaccaro]

I would "ASSume" that if there was not a hydra ice prototype at the Chicago Hobby Show, there wont be one for a while. Anyone go by the castle booth?

[BakedMopar]

I was going to try one beacuse of it's logging features and product support. It around the same price compared to a knock off and a seperate logger. I know it wouldn't be much for castle to add on cooling, but sometimes when things become a specialty item prices go up.

[Rumdog]

has anyone ranit in a boat without cooling? it was made to run in confined spaces, hence the name

[BakedMopar]

Okay I have purchased one of these and have been testing it out. I am running it in a SuperVee27 with a Feigao 12L, X637 prop, 4s 5000 20C Lipos. I have been having problems with it cutting out at WOT. I have played with different settings ( timing, current limiter, PWM) and I still can't figure it out. I even tried a different receiver and Pistix to eliminate tose factors. Here is a couple of log files. I don't actually know how to comprehend some of the information like voltage ripple. First one is on 4s1p and the second one is 6s1p.

George

[sailr]

The first chart looks like the min. voltage goes slightly below the cutoff voltage. Where do you have that set? That would cause it to cut out for sure. Something is really sucking the battery down HARD. The second chart, for 6S gets close again.


Okay I have purchased one of these and have been testing it out. I am running it in a SuperVee27 with a Feigao 12L, X637 prop, 4s 5000 20C Lipos. I have been having problems with it cutting out at WOT. I have played with different settings ( timing, current limiter, PWM) and I still can't figure it out. I even tried a different receiver and Pistix to eliminate tose factors. Here is a couple of log files. I don't actually know how to comprehend some of the information like voltage ripple. First one is on 4s1p and the second one is 6s1p.

George

[BakedMopar]

Lipo cutoffs are set at 3.0v per cell. Here is another one. This one ran the best with only a few cuts. If you look closely the it falls off even with the throttle on and voltage still decent.

[Unsullied_Spy]

Ripple happens when you are pulling more amps than your batteries can provide to the capacitors. Each time one of the phases on the motor fires it needs amps to provide the torque to keep you moving, this happens thousands of times per second which equates to thousands of amp spikes. Lipos cannot handle this kind of draw, so ESCs have capacitors to smooth out the current draw but when you are pulling so many amps that the batteries cannot keep up the caps run empty (but are still trying to provide the amps, which causes them to get very hot and will eventually cook the electrolytic fluid right out of them) and suddenly the lipos have to deal with those amp spikes. Very very bad for ESCs and batteries.

BakedMopar: Your graphs are a bit congested. Could I see the first 2 with just Voltage, Amperage, and Ripple? If you could cut the time period to be only when you're on the throttle the graph will spread out a bit and I can read it better.

[BakedMopar]

Thanks. I will re post them when I get home later.

[BakedMopar]

Okay I fixed all the log files. Let me know if you see anything.

Here is the run with the 6s1p.

http://www.vimeo.com/8009081

[tth]

Man I cant wait to see the Marine Controllers. I noticed they have a 200A Ice Controller scheduled for release for January 2010!

[6S HYDRO]

6s on a 12l holy cow, ive ran 5s on a supervee w/ a 12l and as stock esc with no problems at all and have gps'd at 51.9 mph-but those were saw passes and i'd never try 6s on that motor

[Unsullied_Spy]

Thanks for the new graphs, they're SO much easier to read. My other explanation was for Ripple Current, not voltage. The only Ripple Voltage I know of is for using an AC power supply on a DC device, that obviously doesn't apply here. From the looks of it, when the amperage drops the cell voltage spikes to recovery and that's where you get the ripple from. I'm not sure how much is normal and what the acceptable range is, but you could add capacitors to the input wires (as close to the ESC as possible) to help cope with ripple current and it may help with the voltage, I'm not sure.

Cutting out at WOT could be a software issue, it doesn't look like you're getting too close to 3.0v/cell.

[BakedMopar]

Funny you say that because most say it hitting the cut off including castle. I was thinking filmware also but I will try a couple of stuff tommorow. I will report my findings.

BTW if you watch the video posted it shows how it cuts out. At 0:45 seconds in it cuts out.

[Unsullied_Spy]

It very well could be the LVC but it could also be the ESC having a hiccup. Do you have a smaller prop to try? If you put less load on the lipos the voltage will drop less under load and you shouldn't be stalling out at full throttle.

[BakedMopar]

No that's the smallest prop I have. I used this motor and batteries with my stock SV27 ESC with a m445 prop without a problem. All was changed was the speed control. I will try it today again with the cutoff set at hard and see if that's really what's causing the surge. I will post my finding later on tonight.

[sailr]

If it doesn't cut out with a smaller prop, then we pretty much know it is an LVC issue.


It very well could be the LVC but it could also be the ESC having a hiccup. Do you have a smaller prop to try? If you put less load on the lipos the voltage will drop less under load and you shouldn't be stalling out at full throttle.

[sailr]

Where are the new graphs? I don't see them posted. I would like to have a look at them also.


Thanks for the new graphs, they're SO much easier to read. My other explanation was for Ripple Current, not voltage. The only Ripple Voltage I know of is for using an AC power supply on a DC device, that obviously doesn't apply here. From the looks of it, when the amperage drops the cell voltage spikes to recovery and that's where you get the ripple from. I'm not sure how much is normal and what the acceptable range is, but you could add capacitors to the input wires (as close to the ESC as possible) to help cope with ripple current and it may help with the voltage, I'm not sure.

Cutting out at WOT could be a software issue, it doesn't look like you're getting too close to 3.0v/cell.

[Unsullied_Spy]

No that's the smallest prop I have. I used this motor and batteries with my stock SV27 ESC with a m445 prop without a problem. All was changed was the speed control. I will try it today again with the cutoff set at hard and see if that's really what's causing the surge. I will post my finding later on tonight.

Hmm. Was it cutting out on 4s? Going up to 6s will increase your amp draw and would then be almost certainly an LVC issue. Everything sounds like the LVC is kicking in, but I want to eliminate the possibility that it isn't something else. If you try other batteries, props, etc. you can get a better feeling for if it's cutting out or not. I don't see how you could suck 30C 5k lipos down to the LVC in 45 seconds if they were fully charged unless they are poor quality. Turning up the LVC is another good test to do, if the problem gets worse than your batteries can't hack it.


If it doesn't cut out with a smaller prop, then we pretty much know it is an LVC issue.

Indeed, IDK what the difference between the m440 and x437 is but if the 440 is a less aggressive prop give it a shot and see if the problem persists. Also give 4s a shot, that should lower your amp draw a bit.


Where are the new graphs? I don't see them posted. I would like to have a look at them also.

Check his original posts, he updated the attachments with the new graphs.

[BakedMopar]

Actually the 6s runs were only because they are a higher c rating and newer packs. This boat is normally ran on 4s. All runs with this controller was done on an x637. I found a k40 that I will give a try also. I can't see why this controller at 100a rating cannot keep up the demand that a 45a controller could. I also don't see all 4 set of batteries could crap at the same time. I am not giving up though as I WILL figure it out.

Thanks for all the help

[Steven Vaccaro]

Just a wild guess, but are you using a pistix? If so did you try it without it? This hasn't been an issue I've heard about in the past, but I'm just tossing it out there to eliminate one area.

[Unsullied_Spy]

What LVC did you use on the stock ESC? Stock ESC has no LVC, that alone could be the difference.

[BakedMopar]

I was using a novak 4s cutoff and then a dimension engineering one because it alowed me to use 3s for wave jumping.

I did not try it without Pistix but I have tried another pistix.

[Unsullied_Spy]

I do recall hearing someone say that Pistix adapters can cause full throttle issues, it's worth a shot. I don't know if the Castle controllers will bind to a pistol radio or not, I know most of the Chinese ones will.

[BakedMopar]

Okay guys I figured it out. You would never believe what I changed that worked. I found a post in a heli site about the BEC bogging down and shutting the esc down. I turned my BEC back down to default which is 5.0v and changed the cutoff to hard. That is the only two changes I made and no more surging. I am still at the pond so when I get home I will post up the log files.


Thanks George

[Unsullied_Spy]

Interesting, I am having throttle troubles with my Mamba Monster, perhaps that's what's wrong with mine too? Leaving the voltage low is good for reducing the load on the BEC, higher voltages (just like your motor) increase amp draw which makes it harder for the BEC to cope.

[BakedMopar]

Here is the log from todays run. Voltage looks much better. I wonder if the votage was too high for the Pistix? I also seemed on par with the speed of the SV controller. It slowed down a little with the ICE a little.

[Unsullied_Spy]

If you want to run higher voltage to your radio, get a capacitor such as the Novak Glitch Buster and that should keep the radio going when the BEC is overloaded and should keep those glitches down.

[BakedMopar]

I have one I also have a ubec. Don't think I need it though. It works fine at 5.0v. Maybe I'll add one for the receiver for extra protection.

[BakedMopar]

Here is a little update on the Ice controller. I sorta watercooled it. I mounted the waterplate to the bottom of the controller which is where the most heat comes from and also has no fins for a little more efectiveness. I gave it a shot and I droped about 10-15 degrees on the first set of runs today. Castle Creations says this controller is good for 250*F! It's confirmed on a bunch of Heli sites as well as here on OSE. These controllers are awesome so far. Cannot wait for the Hydra versions.