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ReddyWatts
08-12-2007, 12:35 PM
The WYE motor winding is used in higher torque or higher voltage applications. Typically, DELTA motor winding is used in lower voltage or higher speed applications.

If you take a Wye winding motor (1000kv)and change it to a delta winding motor you will see it change to 1732kv. You will see a higher kv motor with less torque. Torque will be reduced by 43%.

Three phase motors come in two wiring patterns. It is called Delta because the three phases are hooked together in a triangle arrangement. Phase one uses terminals A & B. Phase two uses B & C. Phase three uses C & A. In electrical talk the phases are 120 degrees out of phase with each other. You could think of it as firing order in a multi cylinder gas engine. The Electronic Speed Control (ESC) first talks to or sends power to phase one. Then it waits 120 degree and sends power to phase two. And at 240 degrees it sends power to phase three. At 360 degrees (120 X 3) the whole process starts over again.

Y wind where each leg of the Y is a phase and the center of the Y is common. Y wind typically has higher winding resistance as two windings are in series for each phase. This is why some controllers have problems with delta motors. Delta gives a lower voltage feedback pulse to the controller.

I guess the delta winding could be used in a a lighter, lower voltage. high rpm setup or a hydro that does not require a lot of torque. The more effecient wye winding works in all applications and is better for heavier mono or cat setups.

Anyone can chime in here. Something new I am trying to understand.

SJFE
08-12-2007, 01:52 PM
Mr. Watts you explained that well. I understood it all and I'm not trained or in the field. Nice job. But man..you are WAY over my head....LOL :D. Thanks for the education though :). If it’s any consolation it makes perfect sense to me.

ReddyWatts
08-12-2007, 01:55 PM
I always wondered about the Neu and Lehner motors that were either Wye or Delta windings. Which one should I use? Well, that was the way I understood it. I hope its right?

ReddyWatts
08-12-2007, 03:12 PM
Now I kinda understand the difference between a Y and D motor. What is the difference in a 1Y, 1.5Y and a 2Y Neu motor? Does it represent something or is it just a model number?

ReddyWatts
08-13-2007, 07:34 AM
Example of the same motor wired delta and wye.

NEU
1521/1.5y = 1050 rpm
1521/1.5d = 1850 rpm

1521/1.5Y will handle from 8-55 volts and is a 90%+ effecient motor with more torque. Max effeciency amps 50.

1521/1.5D will handle from 8-32 volts and is a 85%+ effecient motor with less torque. Max effeciency amps 90.

All rating calculations between the motors have a 1.732 relational value between a Wye and Delta connection.

robby76
08-13-2007, 10:36 PM
ReddyWatts..thanks a bunch for the explanation & diagram. how well you explained that.

Jeepers
08-14-2007, 01:36 AM
??????????????? My head hurts now, but I learned something:D

skeeler
08-14-2007, 06:08 AM
Neu motors are named DDLL, where DD is the stator diameter, and LL is the rotor length, both in tenths of an inch. For example,

1512 motor
Stator diameter: 1.5 in
Rotor length: 1.2 in

(See this spec sheet (http://www.drcwebservices.com/ffe/neuspecs.htm), which, for some reason, I can't find on Neu's own site.)

Now, can anyone tell me what the number before the D or Y stands for? Is it the number of turns? In other words, does the 1512/2.5D/S have 2.5 turns to each wind?

ED66677
11-15-2008, 05:27 AM
I'm getting back to this thread as I'm planning to get one of these nice motors, but nobody answered to the last question from Skeeler!
Does anybody knows what the number before D and Y stands for?

Raydee
11-15-2008, 07:08 AM
Its the number of winds from what I have been told. THe lower the number (winds) the higher the KV.

jcald2000
11-15-2008, 08:20 AM
It is the number of wraps of wire around each stator or the number of turns of wire around the stator.

ED66677
11-17-2008, 05:14 AM
thanks!

ray schrauwen
08-12-2009, 11:34 AM
??????????????? My head hurts now, but I learned something:D

I agree mine too...

Still confused better go eat and then re-read...

Fluid
08-12-2009, 06:57 PM
...I guess the delta winding could be used in a a lighter, lower voltage. high rpm setup or a hydro that does not require a lot of torque. The more effecient wye winding works in all applications and is better for heavier mono or cat setups....

Wow, a pretty old thread! But looking at it again with two more years' experience I think the above is just a bit too simplified. To say that the WYE motor has more torque is not always true in the real world - in other words in an FE boat. An example would be two motors suited for 6S boats, the 1527/1.5D (1500 Kv) and the 1527/1Y (1250 Kv). In the same boat the DELTA motor appears to have a lot more torque, as the boat accelerates much harder than with the WYE wind. So in the same application, the D has the edge for raw power. The Y is a bit easier to drive as the power delivery seems more linear, due to the reduced torque.

To say that DELTA motors are for low voltage use is not quite accurate either. The 1527/3.5D (probably not available two years ago) has a Kv of 660 rpm, not very conducive to a low voltage setup.



1521/1.5Y will handle from 8-55 volts
1521/1.5D will handle from 8-32 volts
The difference here is due to the Kv, not the wind type. The 1521 motor is rpm limited, and the theoretical rpm at max voltage for each is:

1521/1.5Y = 58,000 rpm
1521/1.5D = 61,000 rpm

The maximum motor speed (due most likely to the bearings used) is 60,000 rpm, and the voltages listed above are the closest to that limit.




.

BakedMopar
06-10-2010, 11:17 PM
I know it's an old thread but I keep hearing that delta winds are amp hogs. Is it true and why is that? Given that each wind is in a comparable kv rating.

ray schrauwen
06-11-2010, 12:16 AM
Something to do with shorter length of wire for power to travel through, less resistance..?

supafastsupra2
06-11-2010, 01:40 AM
yup, V=IR. At a given voltage, less resistance= more amperage. Take a look at the Delta and Wye diagrams on top and focus on the Resistances. Let's say for example resistances Ra,Rb, Rc, R1,R2, and R3 are all 3ohms and our voltage is 15 volts. R of a series circuit is simply R1+R2+R3... so on and so forth. R of a parallel circuit is 1/R=1/R1+1/R2+1/R3....etc.

So for the delta wind, the effective resistance of a single phase going off the equations is 1/R=1/6+1/3, or 2ohms. On the Wye wind you simply get 6ohms. So while the delta wind pulls 7.5A (using V=IR) the wye only uses 2.5A. This also means that a delta wind motor of similar kv equivelancy to a wye should handle more wattage since you're passing current through a much lower resistance.

To add to Fluid's explanation of Delta wind motor having more torque, Power(W)=(Torque)(2pi)(rotations/second), so using the previous situation of same kv delta and wye motors, the one that consumes more power (watts) will have greater torque. Hopefully this helps clarify how it all works ;)

Diesel6401
01-27-2012, 02:27 PM
Can a mod make this a "sticky" PLEASE?!?

ray schrauwen
01-27-2012, 03:04 PM
That would be nice until I can memorize it.

jcald2000
01-28-2012, 07:10 AM
Amps = torque

Diesel6401
01-28-2012, 11:18 AM
Amps = torque

Way off, thats not even remotely true IMHO take 2 motor same size and length 3674 one 3000kv one 1500kv same voltage same prop, the higher kv is gonna pull more amps, it will have higher rpms, but less torque. The wattage would be higher also amps x volts = watts. Doesn't mean it has more torque though. With that theory I can stick a insanely high kv motor in a larger hull and because the amps draw is so high that means it has more torque?

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk

znus
02-03-2012, 02:06 PM
Maybe the other way around is closer to the truth, although you shouldn't mix electric motors with gas engines :smile: Voltage = torqe, Amps = horse power.

A 1500 kv might not be insane but it's strong and reliable, like a diesel.
A 4000 kv is totally insane but heats up fast and and eats a lot of amps = F1 engine

Boats like diesel engines. Just look at the commercial fleet.

Boaterguy
02-03-2012, 03:26 PM
volts*amps= watts
1hp= ~750W
what i still am missing about brushless motors is multiple poles, is it just the diagrams in the first post on top of each other and then offset ? so there are 6 outpust instead of 3 on the wye wind?

jcald2000
02-04-2012, 06:57 AM
Sorry Diesel, Thats not what my eagle tree has been telling me for 10 years, but to each his own.

Gimp
02-26-2012, 11:53 PM
Great information here, thanks for the explanation.

My new TP 4082 2200kV motor is a 6D wind. I know D's are supposed to have low timing, but what's the range?

ray schrauwen
02-27-2012, 12:44 AM
Five to start, ten at most.

Gimp
02-27-2012, 08:36 AM
Thanks Ray. It's set to 3.75 and my next option is 7.something (T180), for sport boating should I just leave it or try the 7.something?

drwayne
02-28-2012, 06:09 PM
Out here in the 'real world' of industrial application.. large motors have delta start followed by wye run switching circuits.
Delta have abundant torque from stall (at low rpm ) , same wind Wye are better for higher rpm and control...

Pole explanations can mimic cylinders in an engine..the more poles, the more times the mag rotor is 'fired' per revolution..
A 2 pole motor is more likely to stall at low rpm/high load than a multiple pole motor.

W

ray schrauwen
02-28-2012, 06:15 PM
So, maybe over simplified buuut, Y winds accellerate faster to top speed than D winds and D winds can run heavier loads for longer times but, don't accelerate as quickly? Also, it's more work to get the D wind (more heat & amps) up to full rpm than a Y wind?

drwayne
02-29-2012, 07:51 PM
So, maybe over simplified buuut, Y winds accellerate faster to top speed than D winds and D winds can run heavier loads for longer times but, don't accelerate as quickly? Also, it's more work to get the D wind (more heat & amps) up to full rpm than a Y wind?

err, ahh...
Bloke here runs petrol motors.. claims his the fastest 'ever' because can free rev to 19k5 rpm... although reckons his props must be poor because onwater he averages 16k5...
Higher torque motor would offer higher rpm support under load... although the wye motor would have run longer for the same total mAh consumption.2
Are your boats leaders, or followers ?

My light hulls use wye.. heavier get delta.

end of day it's the motor/prop combination you choose that determines final outcomes... and both DorY are suitable... to the right wheel ..

Boaterguy
02-29-2012, 08:27 PM
fairly interesting and possibly has some input on this thread : http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11390932&postcount=24

drwayne
02-29-2012, 08:46 PM
fairly interesting and possibly has some input on this thread : http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11390932&postcount=24

Thanks, interesting.
Your thoughts on flux capacitors ?

Boaterguy
02-29-2012, 09:00 PM
I don't remember reading the word flux capacitor in there.
unless you are talking about it's age

Rumdog
02-29-2012, 09:31 PM
lol

drwayne
02-29-2012, 09:38 PM
I don't remember reading the word flux capacitor in there.
unless you are talking about it's age

Goes to show what's old terminology these days ... late 80's I think.. although there is some conjecture it was seen around '55 ...

Boaterguy
02-29-2012, 09:55 PM
I understand the whole 88mph (kmh?) and then the flux capacitor goes of thing.
I just don't understand what you are referring to..

dana
02-29-2012, 09:58 PM
I wondering if it's possible to determine a motors wind by looking in the can? I have a leopard that nobody knows the wind on...

Boaterguy
02-29-2012, 10:17 PM
if you see a point (usually with shrink wrap around it) where three wires meet inside the can, it's a y wind motor.
just by looking at the case you won't be able to determine unless it's written on it.

LarrysDrifter
02-29-2012, 10:21 PM
How do you know this?

drwayne
02-29-2012, 10:36 PM
I wondering if it's possible to determine a motors wind by looking in the can? I have a leopard that nobody knows the wind on...
Kv? spin at a known rpm and measure voltage between any 2 phase leads... do the math ..~=rpm/V
Delta/Wye ?.. unplug all leads to motor.. spin the rotor like heck for a few secs.. if this builds force against rotation then it is wye...spinning mags charge open coils, causes opposing force against mags... As D the charge is passed between all 3 winds thus no residual.

easy !
W

drwayne
02-29-2012, 10:38 PM
I understand the whole 88mph (kmh?) and then the flux capacitor goes of thing.
I just don't understand what you are referring to..

You've answered your own question...


if you see a point (usually with shrink wrap around it) where three wires meet inside the can, it's a y wind motor.
just by looking at the case you won't be able to determine unless it's written on it.

cough.

Delta have 3 points where 3 meet.... Y only one.. the chance is 3:1 you get it wrong

Boaterguy
03-01-2012, 06:56 AM
okay, the delta points go to the input wires, the wye is tree wires all connected to windings on the stator.

drwayne
03-01-2012, 08:48 AM
okay, the delta points go to the input wires, the wye is tree wires all connected to windings on the stator.

give up, dude....... you've nfi.. Im grumbly because your advice is poorly structured, problematic in execution.. and wrong !

W

Rumdog
03-01-2012, 09:09 AM
Why do you (boaterguy) insist on chiming in on nearly every single thread with incorrect info? Seems every time you give "advice" someone need to come in a re-direct so the OP is getting the correct info.
I agree..... give up.
You need to learn through experience before you start giving out advice.

LarrysDrifter
03-01-2012, 10:20 AM
Agree!!! Been happening a very long time. One can only hope a new boater with zero experience has not spent his money on your advise...

drwayne
03-01-2012, 05:51 PM
Hey Boaterguy(Brydon)
What you said above was kind of correct..but there's much more to add for clarity, usability, and practicality... the answer that popped into your head was not a good solution.
Knowledge is a powerful thing, mate.... So too is knowing your limitations.

Knowledge comes from a lot of reading ( learn how others burnt things ), a lot of browning your own stuff ( learn from your own mistakes ) , and by joining a group of like minded people who challenge the boundaries of existing equipment ..

Dont go hide, mate ... hang around !
You read like an intelligent young bloke who has found a hobby that excites and entertains .. well done.... some folks go a whole life without direction or pursuits..

Experience the subject matter at hand, and become more articulate in your dispensation of that info.. and one day you may be heralded a demi-god of FE !

Right now, you're just green............

regs
DocW


.

dana
03-01-2012, 06:59 PM
Delta/Wye ?.. unplug all leads to motor.. spin the rotor like heck for a few secs.. if this builds force against rotation then it is wye...spinning mags charge open coils, causes opposing force against mags... As D the charge is passed between all 3 winds thus no residual.

easy !
W[/QUOTE]
not sure i understand what you mean but,i sorta do lol, if that makes any sense haha! ill give it a shot, thanks =)

dana
03-01-2012, 07:14 PM
so, i spun it for a bit and it really didnt seem to build up any tension against rotation…. but how can i be sure? do i have to take the endbell off?

drwayne
03-01-2012, 07:33 PM
It wont build up wrist snapping tension, merely a physical resistance to rotation.
After the spin cycle, test the rotational drag against turning by hand slower..... 'tight' .. touch the 3 leads together, release, and spin again.. you would notice a marked reduction in 'drag' against the spin after the leads touch.

At uni 'naughty' ppl would charge up non-terminated Y wind motors for a nasty zap to the unwary ... the energy is stored in the coils.. and acts against rotation .

No, I was never naughty :tape:
W

dana
03-01-2012, 08:25 PM
im not noticing a difference. i did notice when you hold leads together and spin there is alot of tension

dana
03-01-2012, 08:31 PM
i just noticed steve posted the wind on this motor finally. its 3.5 d

Steven Vaccaro
03-01-2012, 08:44 PM
Not sure what all the fuss is about. Get the boat on the water and test different timing values. If you always listen to what someone else says works, its most likely you will always come in 2nd place.

drwayne
03-01-2012, 08:57 PM
im not noticing a difference. i did notice when you hold leads together and spin there is alot of tension

lesson#2.. how to determine if wind is delta...

LarrysDrifter
03-01-2012, 09:00 PM
What Steve said. Half b.s. , half truth. Your own testing will determine success.

m4a1usr
03-01-2012, 09:50 PM
You can recognize the difference between a Delta or Wye winding just by looking at the back end of any motor. There aint no way to make any connection at the front so all motors can be easily recognized by doing a visual at the arse end. Here you go. First picture shows a Delta wind on a Neu, Second one is a Wye from a CC/Neu. You can clearly see that a Wye has 4 connections. And a Delta only has 3.

John

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af218/m4a1usr/DeltaWinding.jpg

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af218/m4a1usr/WyeWinding.jpg

liteumup69
03-27-2012, 05:56 PM
Does anyone know if Neu motors offers a configuration in both delta and wye like the bigger lehners do? If so do you think its worth it?