Apache 24 brushless some help needed.

[SweetZ28]

Hi heres my apache 24 converted to brushless..I am using a 3300KV motor and a 35amp seaking esc...I put flex cabe and turn fin as seen in photos.
My problem is for some reason it feels like it don't float on the water serface it runs deep...what can i do?
Also i have a CF 40 prop on it and the esc stays 89deg and motor gets 140deg max ... I am thinking maybe the prop is to big and the motors RPM is not getting to full Rpm? I see the proboat widow maker uses almost the same set up but uses a smaller prop?

Any help will be great.
Thanks

[Unsullied_Spy]

A 40mm prop should be fine, you could try one of the glass-filled props (37mm is the biggest, I think) but that should be fine. Take the sticker off the motor and get a water jacket on the motor and your motor temps will drop significantly.

[SweetZ28]

A 40mm prop should be fine, you could try one of the glass-filled props (37mm is the biggest, I think) but that should be fine. Take the sticker off the motor and get a water jacket on the motor and your motor temps will drop significantly.

Thanks i did already get a water jacket Steve hooked me up with one ...will it really make the motor run much cooloer than the coil?

I have to give her another run and test it now.
the esc has like 5 to 10 timing settings and i tested each setting and checked the rpms and i can gain almost 2,700 more RPM out off the motor from the 0 timing setting to the highest timing stting... That's just another thing to tinker with!

[FE Wannabe]

Z28,

What battery are you running in this Apache? 2S lipo or 6 cell Nimh?

I am running a Y535 with a Feigao 10L 2458kv with a Hacker 70-3P ESC and 3S 4500mah 20C battery and it looks like I am running over 30mph. I am at 27.000 rpm unloaded with my current setup which should be close to your setup.
If you are running Nimh batteries, that could be what is holding you back. The only issue is if your batteries are only able to deliver so many amps, and you decide to switch to higher output lipos, your ESC may not be able to handle the increased amp load.

Watch your temperatures when you increase the timing on your ESC. You can get additional performance, but at the cost of additional amp draw and heat depending on the type of motor.
Once you are running the motor at its peak rpm, I think you may find that the 40mm prop maybe too big and you may start rolling the hull to the right side. I think most have found a 35mm prop to be ideal for most brushless Apache setups.

To answer your water cooling question, yes, the water jacket removes a lot more heat since the water is coming in to direct contact with the can of the motor, provided you remove the label. Anything between the motor and the water will act as an insulator and slow or prevent optimal heat transfer.

Brad

[SweetZ28]

Hi Brad just did some testing all day today.... Man this thing is slow I don't get it?
with a 40mm cf prop 15.7MPH?
that was wit lipo 2s 4800 I tried a a CF 42mm seemed a little faster should i go 45?
I don't get it it's slower than stock almost?
I did take a unload rpm reading on the motor with a 7.2v nimh battery and it was like 22,000 RPM and the funny thing same test of RPM on a titan 12 550 showed 26,000 RPM with my slot car RPM checker?
I think the motor is just to slow?
Should i try something like this?
540 10S 3,783 RPM/Volt 1/8" Shaft

[FE Wannabe]

Hey Z28,

What kind of 3300kv motor are you running? What are the specs on it? The reason I ask, is that it is obvious your ESC is hardly working hard (89deg) and it only has a 35Amp rating. Either your motor is not powerful enough to push the boat, or it might be worn out.
I would go with an L sized can instead of an S, you want the extra torque of the larger motor. However, a 7L (3500kv) motor can pull up to 88Amps, and I seriously doubt that your 35A ESC will last very long with that motor.
Once your motor is working well you will probably need to go with a smaller prop as well.
Let me know who makes your current motor.
We'll get this figured out.
Brad

[SweetZ28]

Hi here is the motor i purchased:
http://www.bydico.com/hobbywing-ezrun-135t-sensorless-brushless-motor-1-10-c-269-p-1-pr-819.html

It has power when i use the 42CF prop if i floor it on start up it will pop out of the water and twirl once in the air sidways loop and land back in the water.
It just don't have high RPM like i said above on my slot car RPM checker it only shown 22,700rpm if i recal correctly and when i tested my traxxas titan 12 that was in there RPM read 26,000 now that's alot faster that is why i think the boat is slower than stock...my GPS said 15.7MPH!
The ESC now runs very cold under 70degrees and the motor like 90 something with the new water jacket.
Don't know what to do... I don't want to run 3s i wanted it kind of like the proboat widdow maker.

[SweetZ28]

Hi Here is some photos showing the motors RPM on 0 Timing and all the way as much as you can go. Plus water jacket now on.
THANKS

[FE Wannabe]

The only thing I can think of is that either your batteries are not working at their full potential or the motor is not up to the task.
I really think it is the motor. The same motor that can quickly move a 1/10 scale buggy will have its magnets full try to push a boat the same size. That is why a 3800mah 2s battery can last in racing conditions for a couple warm up laps and an entire A main with out losing its ooomph, however that same battery in a properly setup boat won't last 5 minutes. The amp draw necessary to push a boat through the water at speed is a lot greater, and I think your motor is not up to the task. I could be wrong though because I have never moved a car based motor to a boat application myself, but I do remember reading here in the forums from someone much wiser than I that car electronics do not always work well in boating applications. I could not find any continuos or max Amp draw info about your particular motor.
If you do the math, I estimate you are probably only putting out around 259 watts if you assume 7.4V * 35Amps=259watts (based on the temp of your ESC) and that is close to the output of a brushed Titan if I remember right. My Apache is pulling around 11.1*61amps(max amps of a 10L) =677 watts. That is one of the reasons your motor is so hot but your ESC is relatively cool. The motor is maxing out its output but the ESC is handling the complete load because it is not very high.
The best way to determine how many amps you are pulling is to top off your battery and then run the boat for a timed run then recharge the battery and see how many mah you have to put back into it to fully recharge it. The calculation of average amp draw can be found here : http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/conversion.htm

My guess is that it will be a relatively small amount depending on how long you run it. Is your battery even getting the least bit warm when you run the boat?
Unloaded RPMs will not tell you the whole story. Watts is where your power is. 760watts = 1 horsepower roughly. I am thinking it is time for a new motor and ESC that is capable of outputting closer to 700 watts. Match your ESC to the motor you get, make sure it can handle above the max amps the motor can output.
Have a good one and let me know how it goes.
Brad

[SweetZ28]

Hi the batteries the NIMH packs do get like 130 deg after use... I don't want to put a load of $ into this thing I may just sell it and sell off all my other boats and just keep my SV27 Time i buy a new esc and motor it will just not be worth it.

[SweetZ28]

well after loads of testing with props ranging from 45mm down to 35mm and even on a 2S lipo pack fastest i hit was only 18.7MPH
Looks like the 3300KV motor is not fast enough maybe i need something close to like 3900KV to get it to move a bit faster?

[SweetZ28]

well ran the cf 45mm prop on 2s and got still only 18.6MPH!!
That did not go well..this motor must just be a snail it sounds like it has no RPMs the titan 12 brushed motor sounds like it screems when reved on 2S compaired to this 3300KV motor so i guess it's a bad motor.

[Jeff Wohlt]

You could be overloading that 35 amp ESC with that! That is very small for a high KV motor.

[SweetZ28]

You could be overloading that 35 amp ESC with that! That is very small for a high KV motor.

Hi The esc is running ice cold it's not a problem at all.

[FE Wannabe]

Z28,

I think you are now seeing what I was guessing a few posts back, to be the issue. Either the magnets in the motor are shot or the motor is just not powerful enough to push this boat to the speeds you are wanting.
Once you get a good motor that is right for your boat, I think you will find the limits of your current ESC like Jeff is talking about. For this boat to hit 30 mph plus, you will need to have components that will be able to support running at least 600 watts continuously, at least that is what my experience has been, with my brushless Apache. Unfortunately, it does cost additional money to get it setup right. I was able to get my components used of the swap shop, so it kept the costs down.
I hope you stick with it, this hull can be fun once it is dialed in.
Brad

[SweetZ28]

Z28,

I think you are now seeing what I was guessing a few posts back, to be the issue. Either the magnets in the motor are shot or the motor is just not powerful enough to push this boat to the speeds you are wanting.
Once you get a good motor that is right for your boat, I think you will find the limits of your current ESC like Jeff is talking about. For this boat to hit 30 mph plus, you will need to have components that will be able to support running at least 600 watts continuously, at least that is what my experience has been, with my brushless Apache. Unfortunately, it does cost additional money to get it setup right. I was able to get my components used of the swap shop, so it kept the costs down.
I hope you stick with it, this hull can be fun once it is dialed in.
Brad

Hi Brad actually the motor is very good when you turn the rotor you can feel it pop it has very strong magnets,
what do you think of this one? or for running 2S do you think i need even higher KV?
thanks

http://cgi.ebay.com/Marine-3600Kv-Brushless-Motor-60A-ESC-C66U_W0QQitemZ370277251772QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRadio _Control_Parts_Accessories?hash=item56363e7abc

[FE Wannabe]

Hi Brad actually the motor is very good when you turn the rotor you can feel it pop it has very strong magnets,
what do you think of this one? or for running 2S do you think i need even higher KV?
thanks

http://cgi.ebay.com/Marine-3600Kv-Brushless-Motor-60A-ESC-C66U_W0QQitemZ370277251772QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRadio _Control_Parts_Accessories?hash=item56363e7abc

Z28,

I would go with this one instead
click here (http://cgi.ebay.com/Marine-3300Kv-Brushless-Motor-60A-ESC-C65U_W0QQitemZ370277251759QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRadio _Control_Parts_Accessories?hash=item56363e7aaf)

The one you had selected was only a 380 sized motor which wouldn't put out enough power. It looks larger because of the water cooling can. The one I have linked to above is a 540 sized motor which is roughly the same size motor as a Feigao L can like I am running. It is a few bucks more but the additional power is needed to run fast reliably.
Brad

[SweetZ28]

Z28,

I would go with this one instead
click here (http://cgi.ebay.com/Marine-3300Kv-Brushless-Motor-60A-ESC-C65U_W0QQitemZ370277251759QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRadio _Control_Parts_Accessories?hash=item56363e7aaf)

The one you had selected was only a 380 sized motor which wouldn't put out enough power. It looks larger because of the water cooling can. The one I have linked to above is a 540 sized motor which is roughly the same size motor as a Feigao L can like I am running. It is a few bucks more but the additional power is needed to run fast reliably.
Brad

Thanks Thing is i got a 3300KV one now and wanted something a little faster on 2S and 6 cell NIMH.

[illz302]

just go with the Traxxas VXL3S Waterproof system its 4000kv iirc and it will handle 3s but 2s will still run great.

[SweetZ28]

just go with the Traxxas VXL3S Waterproof system its 4000kv iirc and it will handle 3s but 2s will still run great.

I could have swore the VXL is a 3500KV motor?

[Diesel6401]

I could have swore the VXL is a 3500KV motor?

It is 3500kv, your right z28. I was thinking bout putting this setup in my RIO.

[Diesel6401]

Hi heres my apache 24 converted to brushless..I am using a 3300KV motor and a 35amp seaking esc...I put flex cabe and turn fin as seen in photos.
My problem is for some reason it feels like it don't float on the water serface it runs deep...what can i do?
Also i have a CF 40 prop on it and the esc stays 89deg and motor gets 140deg max ... I am thinking maybe the prop is to big and the motors RPM is not getting to full Rpm? I see the proboat widow maker uses almost the same set up but uses a smaller prop?

Any help will be great.
Thanks

http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Boat-2900Kv-Brushless-Motor/dp/B002AOPC84/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games&qid=1257016566&sr=8-3
This is the widowmaker (WM) motor, and the stock WM esc is only a 30a.

[SweetZ28]

http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Boat-2900Kv-Brushless-Motor/dp/B002AOPC84/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games&qid=1257016566&sr=8-3
This is the widowmaker (WM) motor, and the stock WM esc is only a 30a.

yea that's a weak esc ...I thought mine was weak i bought and it's 35amp.

[SweetZ28]

Well here she goes...I am happy now!!:banana::thumbup1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sibSxqJVlUc

[FE Wannabe]

Well here she goes...I am happy now!!:banana::thumbup1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sibSxqJVlUc

Looking Good!

I am glad you got it going fast, after all fast is fun!

What did you use as a bearing in the outdrive for the propshaft to run in?
It kinda sounds like you might have a little binding going on in there. Make sure the flex cable has as little bend as possible going from the transom to the outdrive.
Have fun with it.

Brad

[SweetZ28]

Looking Good!

I am glad you got it going fast, after all fast is fun!

What did you use as a bearing in the outdrive for the propshaft to run in?
It kinda sounds like you might have a little binding going on in there. Make sure the flex cable has as little bend as possible going from the transom to the outdrive.
Have fun with it.

Brad

Hi it's a standard brass tubing that fit inside the original proboat plastic housing but it's long see pic on the top i think you can see it from the side.

Z28

[FE Wannabe]

What size prop shaft are you running? Is it a 3/16" stepped down to 1/8" or is it a 1/8" propshaft?
If it is a 3/16 stepped down to 1/8", I would recommend running a 3/16" stinger sleeve bushing in the outdrive to make it run smooth as glass.
Here are the steps to do it:

1. Heat up the 2 stock bushings in the outdrive with a soldering iron and slide them out. Becareful with the heat the outdrive is plastic after all.

2. Carefully drill out the plastic outdrive with a 1/4" drill bit. You may even try this by hand so that you will not break the outdrive. Use a sharp drill bit and don't force it.

3. Insert a piece of 1/4" brass tubing in the outdrive that is cut to fit the length and use CA glue to hold in place.

4. Buy this bearing (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=ros-spdsd-187) and cut it to fit inside the 1/4" brass tubing.

5. Leave the bearing to free float inside of the 1/4" brass tubing and grease it well. The first couple of runs it may make some noise until it settles in, but then it should quiet down and run very smooth.

This is how I setup my Apache and it runs very quietly.

Brad

[SweetZ28]

Hi here is what i ordered from OSE is this it?
Product ID: oct-ocfhe1813
Product Name: Octura Coupler Flex Hex 1/8" to .130 Cable
Quantity: 1
Unit Price: $9.95
--------------------------
--------------------------
Product ID: oct-oc130L-24c
Product Name: Octura .130 cable system for 3/16" props
Quantity: 1
Unit Price: $9.99

[SweetZ28]

Well next I will try this and see how it goes... I ground down CF prop to 28.90 almost 29mm I am going to have to give it a test run.
Is it possible to balance these CF props ...it's prety small how do you take weight from a prop from the back side facing the boats rear?
dose it matter how you grind off weight also is there any area you should grings?

THANKS
See photo of ground CF prop

[FE Wannabe]

Well next I will try this and see how it goes... I ground down CF prop to 28.90 almost 29mm I am going to have to give it a test run.
Is it possible to balance these CF props ...it's prety small how do you take weight from a prop from the back side facing the boats rear?
dose it matter how you grind off weight also is there any area you should grings?

THANKS
See photo of ground CF prop

Normally with CF props they are so lightweight they would not need balancing. I would think if the two prop blades look pretty close to being the same size you should be OK.

I mentioned this in the PM I already sent you, but I thought I would elaborate a little bit more again in this thread. The 3/16" propshaft on your setup will keep you from being able to run the smaller Octura metal props. I think you may loose some of the effieciency of the prop design if you cut them down too much. I think the outer diameter of the props are where most of the cupping for the pitch is located, so you maybe reducing the pitch of the prop the more you ground it down.
I think you may want to consider getting the Octura 3/16 to 1/8" propshaft for .130 flex cable (part number oct-oc64pkgps) here on OSE for $3.95.. You can find it 3/4 the way down the page here (http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/products.php?cat=70).
Unfortunately, you will need an new drive dog and prop nut for 1/8" as well.
This will allow you to run all the way down to a Octura x427 metal prop for testing purposes.
Just my 2 cents.
Brad

[SweetZ28]

Yea i thought of that i may go that way in the spring time as it's cold here now and i can't run the boats to much longer....and that brings up another thing the water was 54degrees so maybe this is why my electrics and motor ran so cool and the batteries got a little hot....Mybe in the summer things will really heat up?
On another note the 3300KV motor on 7.2V was 20.000rpm now on 11.1 3s it's 30.500rpm that made a big differance.

[FE Wannabe]

Yea i thought of that i may go that way in the spring time as it's cold here now and i can't run the boats to much longer....and that brings up another thing the water was 54degrees so maybe this is why my electrics and motor ran so cool and the batteries got a little hot....Mybe in the summer things will really heat up?
On another note the 3300KV motor on 7.2V was 20.000rpm now on 11.1 3s it's 30.500rpm that made a big differance.

Nothing like chilled water for cooling.:smile:
I also think the increase in available amps with those lipos made a difference as well.
At least you got to see it run to its potential before it got too cold.
Brad

[SweetZ28]

Nothing like chilled water for cooling.:smile:
I also think the increase in available amps with those lipos made a difference as well.
At least you got to see it run to its potential before it got too cold.
Brad
Yea but i got to go and test more!!! I don't care if it's a little cold I have to test the new prop i made!:w00t:

[SweetZ28]

Well went out for some testing again well it was windy cold and leaves all over the water!
Anyhow i tried the 29mm prop and like Brushless55 though it indeed frap along sounding like a blender! That did not go well... Next for the hell of it i tried a 37mm the boat went a little faster but felt like it was pulling crooked all the time and never got to full rpm!! Thaat did not work!! So with my 31.5MM prop i guess i almost nailed it! From testing the bigger prop i would say 32MM or 33MM would be best.
There was alot of leaves and with the 31.5mm prop i tamed over 10min run but that was with me fiddeling stopping going and trying to get leaves off and brining the boat in by me so i can reach down and pull them from the boat...and the battery got 127deg after low voltage kicked in so if i run for like 8min the battery would probably be very cool.... I also though the other day when i ran the boat the batterries where brand new run on there first charge maybe that is why they got a little warm as now they feel like they worked better...maybe after a few charges and runs the lipos run better and cooler.
I think i am going to get a prop and make a 33mm that is probably the ticket as the 31.5 cavitates just a hair with a 33mm probably will hook up the little bit more needed.

[Brushless55]

also move your strut some to get the most out of the prop :thumbup1:
8min run time is good

[SweetZ28]

also move your strut some to get the most out of the prop :thumbup1:
8min run time is good

Thanks I have it just a tad bit angled up it's almost flat with the hulls bottom just a hair up at the end it's running pretty good this way.

Z

[Brushless55]

meaning when you change props change your strut to get the most out of the prop

[SweetZ28]

meaning when you change props change your strut to get the most out of the prop
:beerchug:I got ya....just to cold here now to fidle with it ... I wait till spring time to totally tune it out.

[Brushless55]

I hear ya man..
I'm taking my time with my UL-1 repaint to get it back in the water, also with my Titan 29..
I hear a storm is comming tonight and going through the weekend:w00t:
I want to get them both in the water this weekend

[SweetZ28]

I hear ya man..
I'm taking my time with my UL-1 repaint to get it back in the water, also with my Titan 29..
I hear a storm is comming tonight and going through the weekend:w00t:
I want to get them both in the water this weekend

Yep nore easter hitting i here the wind flying around as i type!!
should be really crappy out for a few days!:ThumbsDown01: