Apache 24 brushless some help needed.

[SweetZ28]

Hi heres my apache 24 converted to brushless..I am using a 3300KV motor and a 35amp seaking esc...I put flex cabe and turn fin as seen in photos.
My problem is for some reason it feels like it don't float on the water serface it runs deep...what can i do?
Also i have a CF 40 prop on it and the esc stays 89deg and motor gets 140deg max ... I am thinking maybe the prop is to big and the motors RPM is not getting to full Rpm? I see the proboat widow maker uses almost the same set up but uses a smaller prop?

Any help will be great.
Thanks

[Unsullied_Spy]

A 40mm prop should be fine, you could try one of the glass-filled props (37mm is the biggest, I think) but that should be fine. Take the sticker off the motor and get a water jacket on the motor and your motor temps will drop significantly.

[SweetZ28]

A 40mm prop should be fine, you could try one of the glass-filled props (37mm is the biggest, I think) but that should be fine. Take the sticker off the motor and get a water jacket on the motor and your motor temps will drop significantly.

Thanks i did already get a water jacket Steve hooked me up with one ...will it really make the motor run much cooloer than the coil?

I have to give her another run and test it now.
the esc has like 5 to 10 timing settings and i tested each setting and checked the rpms and i can gain almost 2,700 more RPM out off the motor from the 0 timing setting to the highest timing stting... That's just another thing to tinker with!

[FE Wannabe]

Z28,

What battery are you running in this Apache? 2S lipo or 6 cell Nimh?

I am running a Y535 with a Feigao 10L 2458kv with a Hacker 70-3P ESC and 3S 4500mah 20C battery and it looks like I am running over 30mph. I am at 27.000 rpm unloaded with my current setup which should be close to your setup.
If you are running Nimh batteries, that could be what is holding you back. The only issue is if your batteries are only able to deliver so many amps, and you decide to switch to higher output lipos, your ESC may not be able to handle the increased amp load.

Watch your temperatures when you increase the timing on your ESC. You can get additional performance, but at the cost of additional amp draw and heat depending on the type of motor.
Once you are running the motor at its peak rpm, I think you may find that the 40mm prop maybe too big and you may start rolling the hull to the right side. I think most have found a 35mm prop to be ideal for most brushless Apache setups.

To answer your water cooling question, yes, the water jacket removes a lot more heat since the water is coming in to direct contact with the can of the motor, provided you remove the label. Anything between the motor and the water will act as an insulator and slow or prevent optimal heat transfer.

Brad

[SweetZ28]

Hi Brad just did some testing all day today.... Man this thing is slow I don't get it?
with a 40mm cf prop 15.7MPH?
that was wit lipo 2s 4800 I tried a a CF 42mm seemed a little faster should i go 45?
I don't get it it's slower than stock almost?
I did take a unload rpm reading on the motor with a 7.2v nimh battery and it was like 22,000 RPM and the funny thing same test of RPM on a titan 12 550 showed 26,000 RPM with my slot car RPM checker?
I think the motor is just to slow?
Should i try something like this?
540 10S 3,783 RPM/Volt 1/8" Shaft

[FE Wannabe]

Hey Z28,

What kind of 3300kv motor are you running? What are the specs on it? The reason I ask, is that it is obvious your ESC is hardly working hard (89deg) and it only has a 35Amp rating. Either your motor is not powerful enough to push the boat, or it might be worn out.
I would go with an L sized can instead of an S, you want the extra torque of the larger motor. However, a 7L (3500kv) motor can pull up to 88Amps, and I seriously doubt that your 35A ESC will last very long with that motor.
Once your motor is working well you will probably need to go with a smaller prop as well.
Let me know who makes your current motor.
We'll get this figured out.
Brad

[SweetZ28]

Hi here is the motor i purchased:

http://www.bydico.com/hobbywing-ezrun-135t-sensorless-brushless-motor-1-10-c-269-p-1-pr-819.html

It has power when i use the 42CF prop if i floor it on start up it will pop out of the water and twirl once in the air sidways loop and land back in the water.
It just don't have high RPM like i said above on my slot car RPM checker it only shown 22,700rpm if i recal correctly and when i tested my traxxas titan 12 that was in there RPM read 26,000 now that's alot faster that is why i think the boat is slower than stock...my GPS said 15.7MPH!
The ESC now runs very cold under 70degrees and the motor like 90 something with the new water jacket.
Don't know what to do... I don't want to run 3s i wanted it kind of like the proboat widdow maker.

[SweetZ28]

Hi Here is some photos showing the motors RPM on 0 Timing and all the way as much as you can go. Plus water jacket now on.
THANKS

[FE Wannabe]

The only thing I can think of is that either your batteries are not working at their full potential or the motor is not up to the task.
I really think it is the motor. The same motor that can quickly move a 1/10 scale buggy will have its magnets full try to push a boat the same size. That is why a 3800mah 2s battery can last in racing conditions for a couple warm up laps and an entire A main with out losing its ooomph, however that same battery in a properly setup boat won't last 5 minutes. The amp draw necessary to push a boat through the water at speed is a lot greater, and I think your motor is not up to the task. I could be wrong though because I have never moved a car based motor to a boat application myself, but I do remember reading here in the forums from someone much wiser than I that car electronics do not always work well in boating applications. I could not find any continuos or max Amp draw info about your particular motor.
If you do the math, I estimate you are probably only putting out around 259 watts if you assume 7.4V * 35Amps=259watts (based on the temp of your ESC) and that is close to the output of a brushed Titan if I remember right. My Apache is pulling around 11.1*61amps(max amps of a 10L) =677 watts. That is one of the reasons your motor is so hot but your ESC is relatively cool. The motor is maxing out its output but the ESC is handling the complete load because it is not very high.
The best way to determine how many amps you are pulling is to top off your battery and then run the boat for a timed run then recharge the battery and see how many mah you have to put back into it to fully recharge it. The calculation of average amp draw can be found here : http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/conversion.htm

My guess is that it will be a relatively small amount depending on how long you run it. Is your battery even getting the least bit warm when you run the boat?
Unloaded RPMs will not tell you the whole story. Watts is where your power is. 760watts = 1 horsepower roughly. I am thinking it is time for a new motor and ESC that is capable of outputting closer to 700 watts. Match your ESC to the motor you get, make sure it can handle above the max amps the motor can output.
Have a good one and let me know how it goes.
Brad

[SweetZ28]

Hi the batteries the NIMH packs do get like 130 deg after use... I don't want to put a load of $ into this thing I may just sell it and sell off all my other boats and just keep my SV27 Time i buy a new esc and motor it will just not be worth it.

[SweetZ28]

well after loads of testing with props ranging from 45mm down to 35mm and even on a 2S lipo pack fastest i hit was only 18.7MPH
Looks like the 3300KV motor is not fast enough maybe i need something close to like 3900KV to get it to move a bit faster?

[SweetZ28]

well ran the cf 45mm prop on 2s and got still only 18.6MPH!!
That did not go well..this motor must just be a snail it sounds like it has no RPMs the titan 12 brushed motor sounds like it screems when reved on 2S compaired to this 3300KV motor so i guess it's a bad motor.

[Jeff Wohlt]

You could be overloading that 35 amp ESC with that! That is very small for a high KV motor.

[SweetZ28]

You could be overloading that 35 amp ESC with that! That is very small for a high KV motor.

Hi The esc is running ice cold it's not a problem at all.

[FE Wannabe]

Z28,

I think you are now seeing what I was guessing a few posts back, to be the issue. Either the magnets in the motor are shot or the motor is just not powerful enough to push this boat to the speeds you are wanting.
Once you get a good motor that is right for your boat, I think you will find the limits of your current ESC like Jeff is talking about. For this boat to hit 30 mph plus, you will need to have components that will be able to support running at least 600 watts continuously, at least that is what my experience has been, with my brushless Apache. Unfortunately, it does cost additional money to get it setup right. I was able to get my components used of the swap shop, so it kept the costs down.
I hope you stick with it, this hull can be fun once it is dialed in.
Brad